tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC September 23, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT
that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. chris matthews will be back tomorrow. all in with chris hayes >> pope francis meets the president on american soil for the first time. tonight, the pomp, the pageantry, and the politics of the papal visit. then the fight on the right to stop trump intensifies. >> trump wants us to think he's mr. tell it like it is, but he has a record and it's very liberal. >> ben carson's anti-muslim rhetoric turns into a fund-raising bonanza. >> our traditions have a judeo-christian base. plus, >> diesel in latin means dirty.
>> volkswagen confirms its clean diesel deception is now a massive global fraud. and the politics of prescription drugs. >> you know, we needed to turn a profit on the drug. >> breaking news from the ceo of a drug company who jacked up costs of a life-saving drug. >> it is still underpriced relative to its peers. >> all-in starts right now. be. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. after months of buildup and anticipation, one of the most electrifying figures on the planet has begun his first visit to the united states. pope francis has come to america. he began his six-day three-city tour this afternoon landing in a white alitalia jet a joint base andrews outside washington, d.c. where he was given a jubilant red carpet welcome and greeted by president obama and the first family, a gesture so rare, mr. obama has only done it on one other occasion. the nation's first catholic vice presidentio biden was in
attendance to welcome pope francis along with some members of his family. also on hand to greet the pope, four catholic school children from the area selected by the vatican offering the 78-year-old pontiff flowers. an honor guard part of the occasion as well as a high school band performing pharrel williams song "happy." the crowds shouting at times francisco. no speeches were given and francis departed the scene in a hatchback fiat and driven to what serves as the vatican's embassy. today was a rather modest kickoff to a whirlwind highly choreographed trip that has triggered an unprecedented security effort across three cities including new york and philadelphia. francis will preside over the first canonization on american soil, meet with the president at the white house and become the first pope to address a joint meeting of congress. and it is that address that is likely to be the highlight of
his visit to the nation's capital. francis was invited by john boehner, a catholic himself who today tweeted the view from the speaker's balcony where francis is expected to greet well-wishers. and now, many are anticipating what the pope will speak about. francis has devoted much time since becoming pope to the issues of income inequality, immigration, poverty, climate change, american. relations with cuba which sparked criticism from prominent republican catholics including those hoping to be the next president. >> i hope i'm not going to get castigated for saying this by my priests back home. but i don't get economic policy from my bishops or my cardinals or from my pope. >> the fact is that his infallibility is on religious matters. not on political ones. >> joining me now, candidate bernie sanders who will be at the joint session of congress to hear the pope speak on thursday. senator, you issued a very enthusiastic welcome to the pope
that struck you as more than pro forma, genuine enthusiasm. it struck me as a perfect encapsulation of this pole's appeal that a jewish man from brooklyn is as enthusiastic about the pope as you are. why you excited he's here? >> i think pope francis has played an extraordinary and brilliant and courageous role on then planet over the last several years. you know, is he one of the important religious leaders in the world. and he is dealing with issues that very few people in congress are prepared to deal with. is he talking about the morality of whether or not so few should have so much. and so many should have so little. he's talking about the dispossessed, the lonely elderly people all over the world who don't have enough to survive, the kids unemploy odd, the people who sleep out on the streets. is he talking about what is going on in the world today, he
calls it the idol latory of money, the worship of the millionaires and billionaires. the belief that what life is about is just accumulating more and more money and forgetting about the children who are hungry or the workers who are making $7.25 an hour. so he is just bringing forth a moral statement which says that we have got to change the way we do things. and i am deeply impressed by all he's doing. >> this rawles your really fascinating speech at liberty university just i think it was last week when you talked about kind of a moral framework for thinking about inequality and social justice issues. what do you make of your colleagues' reaction to the pope? some of the things he's talking about have this kind of polarizing effect in the context in domestic politics. we're seeing that kind of ripple out as he comes 0 capitol hill this week. >> obviously, you know, i disagree with the pope on a woman's right to choose and i
disagree with the pope on issues of gay marriage. but and our republican friends kind of gravitate to him on those issues. but i think the fundamental critique is he is making of the hyper capitalist society that we are seeing globally is something that is striking a strong resonance in the hearts of a number of the progressive members. of the congress and we applaud him very much. >> the pope has made a major effort to bring climate change and the challenge to the front of mind. he issue add an encyly cal which is about essentially the moral theology behind the imperative as commanded by god to steward the planet in the face of climate change. how important is that voice in this debate? >> chris, it is hugely important. it really is.
i think it is helping us very significantly turn the tide. when you have the leader of the catholic church telling us that we cannot continue to destroy god's planet and that we have got to move in an aggressive way to transform our energy system away from fossil fuel, that is a profound statement which i see already having a significant impact on the debate. >> today, hillary clinton issued her stance on keystone, the keystone pipeline which has been the target of a lot of climate activists that would bring dirty fuel from canada down to the u.s. something you've opposed for a long time. today hillary clinton came out against it. your reaction to that news? >> i'm glad she did. i would hope that everybody understands that you can't be serious about climate change and
the need to combat climate change when you are approving the excavation and transportation of some of the dirtiest fuel on earth. so this is an issue we have been talking about for a very, very long time. and i'm glad the secretary came on board. >> might have even been two popes again this thing got cooked up. senator sanders, thank you so much. i'll be talking with you again later this hour. stick around for a sanders sandwich. >> thank you. joining me now michael brendon doherty and carrie kennedy, president of robert f. kennedy human rights and advocacy organization, author of "being catholic now." miss kennedy, the pope is tremendously popular. 86% of catholics view him favorably. he's also somewhat polarizing in certain circles. this is george will talking about the pope comes trailing clouds of sangty money. an expert on that be with a convert's indiscriminate zeal he embraces ideals -- >> what do you make of the fact he seems massively appealing and also polarizing?
>> i don't think he is polarizing to the masses. you saw the poll in the "new york times" today. got 91% approval rating. i mean, people across the globe, catholics, noncatholics, catholic who have left the church love this man and they love him because he cares about the issues that are so important that are facing our globe today. he cares about poverty. he cares about people who are hungry. he cares about people who are struggling. and that's his real message. he's really, he's revolutionized the catholic church with this incredibly positive message of the acceptance and having a big tent and everybody's invited. and no more ostrasizing people on the margins. everybody is here. and let's care about those hose
are really struggling. >> so that's michael, basically why i like this pope. i'm in that group of people that finds him -- i'm a fallen away roman catholic. i like the pope for all those reasons. there's two roles of pope, the public facing role, which is kind of like the dalai lama, this international moral figure. and then there's a guy who runs the catholic church. my sense is traditionalist catholics like yourself aren't crazy how the pope has been doing that role. >> right. listen, he is an almost frightenly popular, especially for a man throwing under this thunder bolts at the entire system of western capitalism and the oppressors across the entire globe. many of whom he's meeting, technically. he's meeting people on the tarmac that have tremendous power. he's popular because of his critique of power. but on the day to day running of the church, yes, some catholics like myself are looking at a
synod on the family coming up in rome and are worried about the fate of the faith afterward if there's going to be a compromise on doctrines around marriage or you know, we worry about the effect of the annulment reform as a sort of catholic no fault divorce being snuck past us. >> this is an important point, miss kennedy. all the social issues that i think folks who are noncatholic particularly or loosely catholic pay attention to. there's doctrinal issues. whether we're going to see actual doctrinal reform, what is your sense of that or where catholics are about that? >> in the first place, think it's great he's throwing those arrows at greed and you know capitalism gone awry. we need somebody to do that. we need a moral leader to say that we need to protect our planet and stop fossil fuels
that are destroying humanity and having the worst impact on people who are the most poor from bangladesh to mexico and to the wildfires in california. and across this globe. so i think that those are all very, very positive changes, but i think that it's not that -- he's not popular because he is critical. it's he's popular because he's uplifting. and because he's positive and because he's telling us we can all work together. and that we all have a role to play and it's a very, very positive message of getting, you know, going to god, being close to god and close to spirituality because of our humanity and not because of the accumulation of material goods.
>> it's precisely that is that has traditionalists scared, because of his popularity and because of his uplifting message, the idea we'd start to see actual doctrinal changes in pronouncements about the family, that he could pull it off. >> yeah, of course. he's going -- he's been getting unbelievable press, you know, in a way like pope francis can say things that you know, might make your skin crawl if benedict said them. >> these are changes that need to happen. that is why he's popular because the american catholics, catholics across the globe say, well, why are we so so tough on people who are trying to get catholics who are trying to get divorced who may be in relationships that are completely inappropriate where a woman is being beaten up and she can't get an annulment? and she can't get remarried and she can't leave her husband? that makes no sense. i think he's heard that.
and said, well, maybe we should look at changing that. and you know, it's not that he's saying we shouldn't -- saying that abortion is okay. he's just saying that's not the most important thing i want to talk about right now. we're talking about stopping greed. not about abortion, abortion, abortion. that's a positive message. >> this question. >> let's everybody come together into this question of emphasis is a huge part of his reception. still to come, we'll have more from my interview with bernie sanders. plus for the first time, donald trump is seeing a real decline in the plos. we'll see how he's handling it. here's a hint, it's not pretty. later, vw, the deception that impacts 11 million cars ahead.
$83,000 just for pharmaceuticals. coming up, my conversation with bernie sanders what to do about out of control prices and the story of the hedge fund manager turned pharmaceutical r ceo who hours ago reversed course after a massive outcry over his decision to raise the price of a life saving drug 5000%. that's ahead. thanks for calling angie's list. how may i help you? i heard i could call angie's list if i needed work done around my house at a fair price. you heard right, just tell us what you need done and we'll find a top rated provider to take care of it. so i could get a faulty light switch fixed? yup! or have a guy refinish my floors? absolutely! or send someone out to groom my pookie? pookie's what you call your? my dog. yes, we can do that. real help from real people. come see what the new angie's list can do for you.
competing for headlines with ben carson and carly fiorina and confronting what now appears to be a downward trend in his poll numbers. you see the red line at the top heading downward in the "huffington post" polling average. unless that reverses course, it looks like donald trump may have passed his peak. for a guy whose entire campaign has been about how his campaign has been a winning campaign, what would he do if he started to falter? donald trump lashes out. last night he tried to reignite his war with fox news. o'reilly factor was negative to me in refusing to post the great polls that came out today. fox news for me! i'm having a really hard time watching fox news he later followed up. rich lowry is truly one of the dumbest of the talking heads. he doesn't have a clue! trump retweeted lots of supportive responses for his followers which i'm sure made him feel better. this doesn't seem to getting can the widespread traction it might have two weeks.
his response to the club for growth which launched a couple of tough anti-trump ads in iowa last week. >> trump wants to us think he's mr. tell it like it is, but he has a record and it's very liberal. he's really just playing us for chumps. trump. just another politician. >> trump's attorney has now written the club for growth a cease and desist letter accusing the organization of liable and threating a lawsuit. the club for growth saying the statement tough guy donald trump starts whining when his liberal record is revealed. his own statements prove our ads are accurate. now that scott walker has somewhat surprisingly dropped out and called on the rest of the field to team up against the current front-runner, we may see defending and perhaps more whining from donald trump. >> joining ugh howard dean and robert costa from the "washington post."
robert, the club for growth went after donald trump. they didn't like the fact he wanted a small section of hedge fund managers to pay higher in taxes. what do you make of this cease and desist letter? is he really going to sue? >> he may. he's been litigious his entire career. they're ready to take on club for growth and believe he's being portrayed in an inaccurate fashion. >> howard, it strikes me the hardest part of campaigning early on is surviving. it's easy to look like you're doing the right thing when you're winning. trump really has just, if you put up that trajectory, it's beak been an upward climb. the test comes in any campaign, this was the true of barack obama. in 2007, people were saying he's dead in the water. it's true of hillary clinton on the eve of new hampshire. mitt romney, john mccain, john kerry. that's the real test of a campaign. >> we'll see how he does. what's mot going to go anywhere is a libel suit in the united
states of america. >> against a negative ad that in the spectrum of negative ads is maybe a two out of scale of 10 of viciousness. >> that's not going to happen. you've got the three front-runners, trump carson and fiorina. i'm not sure any of them have an organization. you can't win in sigh wa i don't care where you are in the polls. you've got to get your people to the polls. that requires one-on-one with staff and voters. >> yeah, robert, is your sense that fiorina particularly who has had a polling boom since the second debate, is your sense there is a framework, there's a ground game in place in places like iowa or new hampshire for her? >> she's working on building it. if you look at her campaign so far, where she's had momentum is on the ground. she does not have a large operation. what she has is a super pac well funded. that has propelled her forward. now it's time for her to balance
out the hard dollars in the actual campaign with that super pac money. trump does have a ground game in iowa. fiorina is trying to catch up at this point. >> when you were running, you didn't have this weird sort of super pac campaign divide. >> right. >> one of the things, one of the lessons i think we learned from scott walker yesterday is super pac is not enough. you've still got to have a hard money campaign operating and functional that pays the bills. >> the same with rick perry, two legitimate candidates who with significant. >> tons of super pac dollars. >> and tons of dollars. they couldn't raise money on their own. i think they're both casualties of the donald trump boom. i don't think we've seen the last casualties of the boom. they had no oxygen when they needed the summer before the election. >> robert, do you have a sense of the capacity of the trump campaign to actually act like a campaign and change direction or do things to alter if it continues to be the case that
his polling average declines? >> i spoke to trump at length yesterday. and i asked him about, do you need a second act in the fall? is there a way your campaign needs to evolve? he says he's not going to drop his blunt persona. he is who he is. he has a operations guy who helps build out his network. trump believes he needs to do more outreach. his schedule for later this month in october, he's going to meet with hispanic leaders and evangelical leaders. he needs to build his own relationships within the conservative movement to keep his campaign moving >> we've been hearing a lot from him about the evangelicals. he brought a bibleable to an event. the question is, what's the ceiling on donald trump's support? it's higher than i ever thought it was. but i also think it's lower than 50%. >> he's done with hispanics. he can meet with as many leaders as he wants to. he's done with him. his numbers were 22% in the polls, 7% worse than mitt romney and most people believe that is
what did mitt romney in. so he might, as well forget it. no matter what he does with the leaders, people will not forget about the way he talked about hispanics all summer long. actually, what happened in the last campaign was you talk about immigrants all the time and aim your remarks, at hispanics, every immigrant in america hears that. not one single immigrant group voted republican the last election. that's extraordinary. >> cannot unring the bell. howard dean and robert costa, thank you both. >> how ben carson's claim he would not support a muslim president becomes a huge financial boost to his campaign. more "sit" per roll. bounty is two times more absorbent. so one roll of bounty can last longer than those bargain brands. so you get more "life" per roll. bounty. the long-lasting quicker picker upper.
>> i think anybody regardless of their religion, if they are willing to embrace the values and principles of america and our constitution and subject their beliefs to the constitution, i have no problem with that at all. >> there may be a simple reason that carson still won't quite entirely back down. his comments have reportedly helped him raise lots more campaign cash with the head of his super pac telling the washington times we sent out an e-mail to his supporters and never had one raise so much so quickly. the controversy has exposed a pretty deep vein of anti-muslim bias who view an islam as fundamentally incompatible with american democracy. >> what about somebody who is of a faith that does not traditionally separate church and state? that traditionally has a theocracy, that traditionally
treats women in ways different than we do, treats gays in different ways that we do, subjugates other religions? obviously, that would not be something that would be consistent with american values and our constitution. there's no question that our constitution and our traditions have a judeo-christian base. there's no question about that. >> a lot of assumptions in there. his campaign manager told the associated president "while the left wing is huffing and puffing over it, republican primary voters are with us at least 80/20. people in iowa, yeah, we're not going to vote for a muslim either." that seems born out in a new poll of iowa republicans. only 49% said it should even be legal to practice islam in the united states. while 30% said it should be outlawed all together and 21% weren't sure. i'm joined sabrina sa dekey.
i wanted to talk to you because we were going back and forth on this on twitter and talking about the president is not a muslim, and you said something like every time i hear this it, all i hear is someone saying my kids can't be president. how are you? what is your reaction to the last three or four days of this news cycle? >> well, i think that ben carson actually answered the question that a lot of reporters have failed to ask of these candidates and these politicians when he this he focus on president obama's faith in particular. which is the so what question? so what if a candidate for president was a muslim? are we implying an that's some kind of disqualifier. in carson's case he did say no, i would not advocate that we have a muslim in charge of this nation. while i don't have kids of my own at this point in time, the question that a lot of muslim families across america face as americans is what do we tell our kids? are we raising our kids in a country where we can say you can
be anything you want to be but you can't be president of the united states? >> what do you make of -- i think there's two ways of understanding this polling, the public policy polling or reaction to his statements. there's a lot of bigotry in the republican base. or that this is essentially kind of symbolic answer that people give pollsters because they're frustrated with barack obama or the status quo or liberals like myself. >> well, look, the polling has shown consistently without question, there is a vein ran within the republican party that has very negative attitude towards muslims. a lot of this does stem from the conspiracy carson is using as the basis of his argument that were trumpeted in the last presidential election by michele bachmann, by herman kaine, that there's this secret effort to try and bring sharia law to the united states, that the muslim brotherhood is infiltrating the obama administration as we heard last week that there already training camps here in america
where muslims are training to attack us here on american soil. i mean, the party leaders have not silenced these voices. and they haven't denounced these conspiracy theories. that's what's given fodder not just to the likes of ben carson but stoked the paranoia you're seeing within the base. >> one of the things most remarkable about this is one of the most sort of explicitly not theocratic but someone who seems the most ambiguous and ambivalent about the relationship between the constitution and the bible is himself ben carson who when asked a question about the supremacy of each of those documents sort of equivocated he is turning around and saying you wouldn't want someone who puts their faith supremely over the constitution even going so far and this is something you see from folks criticizing islam talking about well, islam doesn't treat gays well. this is someone himself who wants second class citizenship for gay americans. it's a pretty head-spinning
amidst the pomp and circumstance of the pope and the 2016 election, it's easy to lose sight of the fact we may be looking at what might be the largest systemic corporate fraud in the history of the global corporation. a crime scene affecting cars on roads around the world. under pressure from the apa, volkswagen admitted their clean diesel cars have been systematically proactively engineered to deceive emissions testing. those cars actually spewing out far dirtier emissions than they were registering on those tests. this was an intentional design engineering choice involving
type ea 189 engines two liter engines. the original disclosure involved about 500,000 cars in the u.s. that was bad for volkswagen. the justice department conducting an investigation. new york's attorney general opening an investigation. a congressional house committee holding hearings. then it got worse because it wasn't just 500,000 cars in the u.s. no, it was 22 times that amount. yes, volkswagen admitting the deception involves some 11 million vehicles worldwide. company is setting aside the equivalent of half a year's profit, 6.5 billion yours or $7.3 billion to cover the expected costs of this mess. here's the kicker. this was not some ensue larry feature of the car. the entire selling point of these diesel engine vehicles in the u.s. was that they were clean diesel. >> i think it's beautiful. but aren't diesels dirty. >> yeah, that's true. >> oh, that used to be dirty. this is 2015. >> no, be no, no, listen to me.
diesel in latin means dirty. >> i'll prove it to you. you're going to ruin your scarf. >> look what she's doing. >> see how clean it is. >> it's not dirty but you still have a dirty mind. >> both volkswagen american's ceo vowed and germany's ceo pledged to uncover what happened. >> in my german words, we have totally screwed up. we must fix those cars, we prevent this from ever happening again and we have to make things right. >> joining me now host of greenhouse. you've been doing great work on this. corporations cover stuff up all the time. there was vioxx, even tobacco companies linked to cancer. they discover a bug, they cover it up. this is not that. >> this is different. typically companies find a defect and don't fix the problem. this is an abundance of courage. in 2009, volkswagen was trying to beat toyota in the u.s.
market. emission standards come down. at some point the company said we can make a fun car or we can make a legal car. we're going to choose to make the fun car and screw the emission standards. if you're a republican, if you think the epa goes too far, this is almost like a heroic act by volkswagen. they came up with a cheating machine. a machine that beats federal regulators in washington. >> they basically say look, we've got this diesel car. it's got great pickup. we want people to have the vroom of the engine. they come up with this thing, clean diesel. i was going to buy this car. i was looking at buying this car. you read all the stuff on the website. everything you know about diesel is wrong. it turns out they had software implanted to fool the emissions testers. they had to actively decide to do this. >> yeah, this is not an accident. guys got in a room. the smartest engineers they had. they had to design a cheating machine.
we're used to accounting fraud, financial fraud. move some numbers around, make something up on a computer. this is a device constructed in the headquarters of volkswagen to deceive on a mass scale to deceive the epa, to try to knock down these terrible chemicals which do terrible things to people. >> how does this get discovered? >> in a great way. they almost got away with it last year. was volkswagen's most profitable last year. the ceo came on one year before the scandal. he's doing great. people love these cars. >> the review coming up at the end of the month and this chain of events out of europe. former epa officials are doing tests. they team up with guys at west virginia university, california regulators hear about it and they bust volkswagen. volkswagen tried to deny it for a year compounding the problem. >> it looks like you've got something going on essentially masking the severity of the emissions. >> california regulators said
the cars look great and west virginia researchers did a road test. that's weird. 40 times more pollution comes out when the car's on the roads than when the car is in the federal test. >> wait a second. 40 times? >> 40 times more up to 40 times nor nitrogen oxide, a major component of smog which causes bronchitis and family seem ma. this case reminds me ef salmonella peanut butter case. the guy got 28 years. they knowingly put on the road something that pollutes, puts a dangerous chemical into the air. that is courage. it's not a lack of courage. >> what is going to happen next? can you recall 11 million cars. >> they have about a year before the epa will start pressing them. the big quell is how much money piles up here. they're on the hook up to $18 billion from the epa alone. there's also going to be a justice department probe. they'll face a criminal fine.
individuals may go to jail here. the justice department has been saying we're not just going to get you the company. we're going to get specific people. >> unreal. we'll continue to monitor this. tony, thanks a lot. more from my interview with bernie sanders. in many ways so far the 2016 so why pause to take a pill? and why stop what you're doing to find a bathroom? with cialis for daily use, you don't have to plan around either. it's the only daily tablet approved to treat erectile dysfunction so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. plus cialis treats the frustrating urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision,
or any symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. why pause the moment? ask your doctor about cialis for daily use. for a free 30-tablet trial go to cialis.com in many ways so far the 2016 presidential campaign has been focused on the distaste and mistrust voters have for washington. for washington insiders. a shorthand for the city and the messy sometimes corrupt and venal political system that gives americans the impression that d.c. is this den of iniquity filled with self-dealers. while there's more than a kernel of truth to that, the stereotype ignores the legions of bright, exceptional committed individuals who go to the nation's capital to work very hard 0 try to make our country a more perfect union. and one of the most exceptional examples of those kinds of individuals was jake brewer, a white house staffer who served as a senior technology adviser. he spent his career trying to
use the tools of technology to make our democracy more humane and more accountable. more transparent. he was a true believer, a perpetual troublemaker in the best sense. it is why is it was something of a miracle that he was working in the white house itself before working at the white house, brewer along with jose antonio vargas cofounded define america, focused on fixing our broken immigration system. jose was the gay filipino brother i never had wrote brewner 2011 and i was the white american heartland brother he never had. this past saturday brewer's life was tragically cut short when his bike crashed in maryland during a ride to raise money for cancer research. jake brewer was only 34 years old. in a statement, the president wrote simply put, jake was one of the best. and those who worked with him and knew him agree. he leaves behind his wife, author and journalist mary catherine hamm along with her 2-year-old daughter georgia and a child on the way.
late breaking news tonight with the ceo of turing pharmaceuticals 32-year-old former hedge fund manager martin shkreli announcing he is reversing course after coming under tremendous criticism for raising the price of a drug 5000%. the drug daraprim is used to treat toxoplasmosis. after buying rights to the 62-year-old drug last month, turing pharmaceuticals raised the price from $13.50 per pill up to $750 a pill taking the total treatment cost from around $1,000 up to $63,000. daraprim costs very little to make. the price increase prompted protests and outrage online. martin shkreli was defiant in
the face of criticism tweeting out lyrics of eminem and calling a journalist who questioned him a moron. in a series of interviews he said profits would pay for a new and improved version of the drug even though doctors argued the version worked just fine. he argued the price hike wasn't so bad. >> the companies before us were giving it away. the price per course of treatment was only $1,000. these days modern pharmaceuticals cancer drugs can cost $1,000 or more. daraprim is still underprized relative to its peers. >> tonight celly backed down telling nbc news he would lower the price of the dug. >> it's very easy to see a large drug price increase and say those people must be gouge. when you find out the company is not making money? obviously, we're in an election cycle where this is a very tough topic for people and it's very
sensitive be. >> his reversal comes hours after hillary clinton who today announce aid new plan to lower prescription drug costs accused them of engaging in price gouging of desperate people. it's not just clinton. my interview with bernie sanders on his efforts to reign in drug prices began long before the story broke.
joining me now democratic presidential candidate senator bernie sanders. senator sanders, martin shkreli who is the former hedge fund titan who made a lot of news with this price increase a few days ago just announced that he is reversing course. he's going to lower the cost of daraprim. we don't know back down to what. what's your reaction to the news service. >> obviously what these guys do is so outrageous when it gets into the public eye and people perceive these huge, huge increases in medicine that people desperately need, these guys have got to back down. what we have right now, chris in
the whole pharmaceutical industry is nothing less than an outrage. our people are paying the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. you had it the three top companies making $45 billion in profits last year. and the industry spends something like $250 million last year in lobbying and campaign contributions. these guys get away with murder. it's time we stopped them. >> so there's this trend happening that this is one part of, right? which is drugs that are older drugs and out of patent. this isn't a patent issue. other sort of secondary buyers coming in, buying a kind of monopoly of the distribution channels and jacking up prices. this is something you and elijah cummings have been looking at and working on. what is the solution. >> for the government basically to step in and say excuse me. unless there is a rationale reason like you cannot get the
compounds and the substances you need to make the drugs, you just cannot jack up the price to any level that you want. and there are a number of mechanisms we have that we can deal with. but bottom line here is, what we have got to do are several basic things. number one, medicare part d needs to negotiate prescription drug prices with the pharmaceutical industry. the veterans administration does it. medicare does it. that is pretty crazy. second of all, as somebody who is not a great fan as you know, of unfettered free trade, it is amazing to me why we can bring lettuce and tomatoes in from mexico but distributors and pharmacists can't bring in low cost prescription drugs from other countries around the world. that's pretty crazy. just speaks to the power of the pharmaceutical industry. we move forward in those two areas, we will substantially lower prescription drugs for the american people. >> so i just want to be clear,
those two methods you just noted of lowering prices overall, this is bulk negotiation for medicare part d which is a huge drug breyer and he'sing importation of cheaper drugs. the first one was the government stepping in and saying you can't do. pharmaceutical companies say that's not the way america works. we've got a free market. i can charge whatever the market will bear. what's wrong with that? >> what's wrong with that, one out of five patients in this country who gets a prescription from a physician can't afford to fill it. so you get people who get sicker end up in the hospital because they can't take the medicine, can't afford the medicine they need. this includes cancer patients. you know, there have been oncologists signing letters saying we can't treat our patients. if you're talking about human health and at the end of the day, if you're talking about trying to control high health care costs, of course, we've got
to regulate the price of drugs. every other major country on earth does it. we don't. that has got to end. >> there were a lot of reports when the affordable care act was being crafted about all the back channel communication between the white house, the bill's sponsors in congress and big pharma. essentially finding ways to bring pharma to the table to make sure they would not oppose the bill because they saw it as a death blow politically. is this the cost of that? do you think pharma got off scot-free in obamacare and that's what we're seeing now? >> what you described to the best of my knowledge is in fact what happened. but this goes way beyond the affordable care act. back in 1999, chris, i was the first member of the congress, i was in the house then, to take americans over the canadian border and they were women mostly who had breast cancer issues, suffering from breast cancer. they bout drugs they needed in canada for one tenth the price they had to pay in vermont and in america.
so this has gone on for a long time. let me be clear. pharmaceutical industry maybe along with wall street is the most powerful lobbying force in washington. they never lose. they never lose. that is why our people are paying outrageously high prices. we need to bring the people together and say sorry, this has got to end. >> pharmaceutical companies will make this the following argument. you see this all the time. in fact, mr. celly made this argument about daraprim. we take our margins, sink it back to r&d. we have the most innovative pharmaceuticals in the u.s. everyone is drafting off that innovation. that's why they can offer lower prices. what's your responses? >> they spend more money on marketing and advertising than they do on research and development. second of all and one of the aspects, one of the things in my bill demands this, we really don't know what they mean by research and development. you're thinking, they're working on cancer.
and skits prennia. that is not necessarily the case. it could be a me too drug that is in every drug similar to a previous drug. we don't know what they spend their money on. they are enormously profitable, spend a fortune on lobbying and campaign contributions. >> thank you very much. that is "all in." rachel maddow show starts right now. >> thanks to you at home for joining this hour. on a norwegian island 800 miles from the north pole deep underground, there is a vault. it took decades to conceive, years to build. it has been operating there for seven years open. 2008. but the idea of this vault is that it should stay in operation until the end of days. and i'm not even really exaggerating by saying that. the idea is that this vault should be there for us humans as a species when inevidentbly the we humans do something so dumb